How did he get away with it for so long? Bernie Madoff is as astonished as you are
Wednesday, November 4th, 2009Of the reams of exhibits from SEC Inspector General David Kotz’s investigation of the agency’s failure to uncover Bernard Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, one getting a lot of attention is Exhibit 104 (pdf, 730 kb), notes from Kotz’s June 17, 2009 interview with Madoff. In the italicized excerpts that follow, Madoff sounds as perplexed as everyone else that he wasn’t found out sooner.
Madoff stated that “Everything the SEC did prior to 2006 was a waste of time…”
Regarding two SEC Office of Compliance Inspections and Examinations (OCIE) investigators who questioned him in 2006:
Madoff stated that “they never even looked at my stock records” or did a “box count.” He said he was “astonished” that they didn’t ask for DTC (Depository Trust Company) records, and stated that only a regulator could get those records from DTC, and the SEC would “have to go to DTC.” He added that DTC does not have separate accounts for each customer, but rather, provides a global report, but stated that if they went to DTC, they would’ve seen his market-making position, and that it “would’ve been easy for them to see” the Ponzi scheme. Madoff stated that the SEC could’ve gone to counterparties, and if they had, they “would’ve seen it,” adding, “they didn’t do any of that.” He stated that “it’s the only thing to do,” and clarified, “If you’re looking at a Ponzi scheme, it’s the first thing you do.”
Regarding an investigation by SEC’s Division of Enforcement:
Madoff said it was “amazing to me” that he didn’t get caught during the Enforcement investigation, because they specifically asked him, “Are these securities at DTC?” They further pressed, “What is your account number.” He replied, “646.” Madoff stated that it was “obvious they thought that something was amiss.” He went on to say that when they asked for the DTC account number, “I thought it was the end game, over. Monday morning they’ll call DTC and this will be over… and it never happened.”
Madoff stated that when nothing happened, he thought, “After all this, I got away lucky.” But he said he thought it was just “a matter of time,” saying “that was the nightmare I lived with.” When Enforcement did not follow up with DTC, “I was astonished.”
Madoff stated that the Enforcement investigators “asked all the right questions, but it was still focused on front-running.” He said that the investigators dismissed the allegation of a Ponzi scheme as “inconceivable to them.” …
Madoff stated that he got the impression through all the exams and investigations that “it never entered the SEC’s mind that it was a Ponzi scheme.” …
Madoff stated that there were two points at which he thought “the jig was up”:
1. During the on-site OCIE exam, because he thought it was routine for the SEC to check with an independent third party
2. Right after his testimony during the Enforcement investigation when they asked him “what’s your DTC account number?”
Madoff stated that he was “worried every time” he was examined or investigated by the SEC, and that “it was a nightmare for me,” because “it was very basic stuff.” He added, “I wish they caught me six years ago, eight years ago….”
Madoff stated that SEC examiners didn’t always look at the big picture issues, rather, they focus on minutia. He stated that he didn’t have any suggestions as to how to fix that problem. However, he stated that he believed the problem with SEC examiners is a combination of the “experience they have and the procedure they use.” He said, “It all comes down to budgets, I guess.”
Madoff indicated that it lent to the credibility of his firm that he had passed examinations by the SEC. He stated that some clients would ask him when was the last time he’d had an exam, and he’d give them the date…
He stated that reconciling records with DTC was something they “should’ve done in ‘06.” When questioned as to whether the Ponzi scheme would have been uncovered by the SEC if it had gone to DTC, he stated, “Yes. It’s very easy to do.”
He stated that in 2006, it was clear they asked about front-running because there were sweeps of the industry at that time for front-running. But in trying to discover a Ponzi scheme, he stated, “It’s very easy if you want. You must do a third party check. It’s absolutely a must.” He went on to add that “It’s Accounting 101 to look at DTC, do a box count” if you are looking for a Ponzi scheme.
Regarding a more rigorous exam conducted in 1992, when he was trading legitimately:
He said the SEC saw that the trades were real in 1992. When asked if the SEC did in later exams what they did in ‘92, would they have uncovered the Ponzi scheme? Madoff answered, “Absolutely.” He added, “There is no way they can avoid being criticized for not doing that in 2006.”
Regarding new SEC Chairman Mary Schapiro:
Madoff stated that Mary Shapiro (sic) was a “dear friend,” and that she “probably thinks I wish I never knew this guy.”
That June interview must have informed some of the recommendations included in Kotz’s September 29 memorandum (pdf, 5.0mb) reviewing the OCIE examinations.
Recommendation 27:
For significant issues such as whether trades have been executed and who has custody of assets, in the absence of third party (counterparties, custodians, etc.) documentation, the Office of Compliance Inspections and Examinations (“OCIE”) examiners should not simply rely on representations of BD (broker-dealer) or IA (investment adviser) personnel but should contact third parties directly. OCIE should provide guidance or training that clarifies for examiners circumstances that require such contact with third parties.
Recommendation 28:
The Office of Compliance Inspections and Examinations examination staff should be required to verify a test sample of trading or balance data with counterparties and other independent third parties such as Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, Depository Trust Company, or National Securities Clearing Corporation whenever there are specific allegations of fraud involved in an examination.